The missing link of the New York Post-Punk scene of the eighties
Interview with Phil Gammage
By Dario Falcón
Navigating without a compass through the sound waters of a virtual sea is comforting. It can give you unexpected treasures, lost chests thrown to the bottom of the sea by the pirates of the recording industry. Trunks full of pearls, songs that never perish or bands that have been punished with the ferocious whip of indifference.
Certain General has become my last great discovery during long walks without expectations. Using only a sound detector, capable of finding melodies and rhythms well hidden under the asphalt. Beautiful invisible compositions, sounding in dark alleys, circulating through New York streets, back in the eighties.
Certain General is an American post-punk band formed in 1980 by Parker Dulany, Phil Gammage, Marcy Saddy and Russell Berke. They have been dubbed «New York’s ’80s cult favorites» or «the bridge between Television and Radiohead.»
By the late ’80s the band had already started playing nightclubs like Hurray, and their distinctive sound became a hard-hitting mix of Post-Punk power and New Wave vibes.
Their shows became recurring and fundamental acts of the main emerging clubs such as Danceteria, CBGC, Mud Club or the Peppermint lounge and they shared the stage with other bands such as DNA, Bush Tetras, Liquid Liquid, Mission of Burma, Raybeats and Swans.
And although they enjoyed some recognition in the city where they were born, Certain General had a certain impact in other countries, such as France, where, for example, their 1985 album November’s Heat had a great reception.
After forty years since its founding, Certain General continues to perform shows from time to time and maintains Parker Dulany and Phil Gammage, two of its original members, in its formation.
Radio Gulp contacted the band’s guitarist Phil Gammage, who, in addition to having been a member of other projects, has a great solo career and more than eight albums released.
Phil Gammage
Thank you Phil for taking the time to answer a few of our questions regarding your time playing in the New York post-punk band Certain General and what you’re up to currently. There is not much information on your early days with that band so we are curious to hear what you have to tell us.
My pleasure to talk to you Darío. I don’t get asked to share my experiences playing music with Certain General very often so this is fun for me to look back. I appreciate you reaching out to me.
In 1980 you moved to New York and formed the post-punk group Certain General with three other musicians. How did you meet them and what music and interests did you all have in common?
I had lived in New York for almost a year when we four co-founded the rock band Certain General. The original lineup was me on guitar, Russell Berke on bass, Parker Dulany on lead vocals, and Marcy Saddy playing drums. We met each other through mutual friends or were neighbors (Russell and Parker). We all lived in the East Village / Lower East Side of New York which in that era was such a great place to be for young artists. Russell was our music director. He was a couple of years older than the rest of us and had a strong musical vision.
It was apparent from the start that there was a great chemistry when the four of us made music together. Our original songs were a unique combination of no wave, surf, funk, psychedelic, and British alt-rock. They were almost all short and fast, some VERY fast. Our first show ever was at Club 57 on St. Marks Place in New York and it took off from fairly quickly from there. We were aided in those early days by our friends the New York DJ Sara Salir and our sound man Perry Brandston. There help was invaluable.
Our first recording was the five song Holiday of Love EP for the local indie label Labor Records. It was produced by Peter Holsapple (the dBs, REM) and mixed by Michael Gira (Swans). Labor pushed us to use Felix Papalardi (Cream, Mountain) as our producer but we wanted someone who was our peer like Peter. Unfortunately shortly after Holiday was released the band started to experience the typical cliché rock band problems. Egos, infighting, and all the usual stupid stuff. Labor Records lost interest in us and stopped asking for the planned follow up album. We split up for a while then got back together in a few months minus Russell.
Holiday got some college radio airplay and a handful of decent reviews, but it faded away quickly from the public eye. Our song “Holiday of Love” never was the dance club hit with New Wave club DJs that we had hoped it would be. However the record was noticed and well liked by a European independent rock label out of Le Havre, France called L’ Invitation au Suicide (I.A.S Records). That would lead to some big opportunities for Certain General in a couple of years.
CBGB and Danceteria were some of the emblematic places where the band played regularly. Two venues that are no longer there today. What other bands did you play with there? They were places that became a launching pad for many musicians who later achieved great notoriety.
Yes those are two famous live New York music venues and I played both numerous times. There were fun places to hang out too. CBGBs always had the best sound system in town. One show I recall there was us headlining with two great Los Angeles “paisley underground” bands The Rain Parade and Green on Red.
When Certain General would perform at Danceteria it was one set starting at 2AM! We played there with Mission of Burma, Jason & the Nashville Scorchers, and many others. Elsewhere around the world Certain General played shows with Gang of Four, Sisters of Mercy, The Bongos, Rank and File, The Rezillos, Liquid Liquid, Swans, The Cure, and others that I know I’m leaving out.
Certain General in Danceteria
Parker Dulany, the poet and singer of the group called the band «Invisible New York» or «The Invisible Band». Why did the band use that term?
I think he began using that in an interview he gave with music journalist Kris Needs some years back. It’s a good description — it may be he was glamorizing the band as ‘beautiful losers’ or maybe as the ‘beautiful screwups’ as we used to joke about ourselves. The fact that we never released a full album in the United States until the late 1990s contributed to our invisible obscurity here. Most of our efforts were always centered around Europe and in particular France. We later used Invisible New York for the title of our compilation album on Easy Action Records U.K. that I helped put together.
Ruth Polsky, well known in the early 80’s underground music scene had a very close relationship with Certain General. How do you remember her today now that she’s gone?
Ruth was Certain General’s second manager after Stephen Graziano. By then she already had a solid reputation as the talent booker for Hurrah and then Danceteria. She was established in Britain as the New York connection for many of their up and coming bands such as New Order and The Smiths. Ruth was flying over to England all the time to network and check out new bands to book in New York. She was always one step ahead of everyone else with her bookings. She began managing us at a time when we were starting to get a lot of attention in France and the U.K.
She was a kind and sweet lady, a real powerhouse, and trailblazer for women in the music business. I wish she’d get more recognition and accolades for all her contributions to the music world.
Certain General played with The Cure and in 1985 toured the United States with New Order. What do you feel were the most important moments in the band’s career? Do you remember any of those shows?
I remember all of them. Playing at the Beacon Theatre with The Cure in New York was great. I was with the band for the first tour with New Order. Fun guys they were… particularly that Peter Hook! But there are a few other shows that are more important to me…
Our Holiday of Love record release party with Swans and the Radiant Boys opening for us was a big milestone for the original lineup of the group. It was at the Ukrainian National Home in the East Village of New York. A couple of years later, a few of the guys from the Radiant Boys formed the hugely successful arena metal band Prong that continues on to this day. And as you may know, people now write books and film documentaries about Michael Gira and Swans who are also still active. So that’s all quite amazing to consider.
However, the biggest moment for me from that era was our first trip to France. We played two theater shows in Paris that trip. The reception was fantastic and a real surprise to all of us — we had no idea that we were so popular there. You have to remember that we were still just a club band in America. We were on the front cover of Libération which for a new foreign rock band was huge. It was all crazy fun stuff and that was a helluva of week we spent there that February. Those Paris gigs and our album November’s Heat laid the groundwork for all of the band’s French success in the future.
Is Certain General is the missing link of the New York post-punk scene? Your album became record of the year in France… what bands supported you in England and France?
A music critic came up with the missing link description. It sounds great but I’ve never been sure exactly what is meant by it. Certain General were definitely influenced by the 1970s NYC bands as were many of our peers… their music had turned the rock world upside down.
November’s Heat was declared “rock album of the year” by one of the major French music magazines. We recorded it at Chun King Studios in New York over a one year period and it was financed with money earned primarily from our frequent gigs at Danceteria. Our manager Stephen Graziano licensed it to the French label I.A.S. Records and it instantly was a huge success. Unfortunately there was no domestic release for the album and not a lot of distribution as an import either. So here in the States few people heard it. I finally got it out in America on Alive Records of California in 1999.
Our first visit to play in the U.K. was with fellow New York rock group Band of Outsiders. They were allies of ours and we also did a tour with them in the American South. We made the trip over on Peoples Express Airlines. I think the one way flight ticket from NY to London was $49 or something insanely cheap. That’s how the two bands were able to get over there to play some live shows. That and sleeping on our friend Kris’ living room floor in London.
After the tour with New Order you left the band and focused more on your solo work. What led you to take that step and what was it like to leave a project you’d put so much time and work into?
Upon returning from playing in France and England the band played a few east coast dates and wrote some new songs. Plans were being formulated for a return trip to Europe. Some records labels were starting to come around and I was hoping we could get signed by or at the very least license November’s Heat to an American label. I saw that happening to other bands from New York that were our peers, like Sonic Youth and Swans. I proposed the licensing idea to Ruth but she didn’t like November’s very much so it never happened. She was very focused on the breaking the band in England where most of her business connections apparently were.
Parker Dulany and Phil Gammage
I’d always played with different musicians and experimented musically outside of Certain General. After leaving the band I started to develop my own songwriting and have released several solo albums over a period of years. Musically I began to explore a more ‘roots music’ style that I had played as a teenager; much different than Certain General. This was the music I was around growing up in Texas. I began to include elements of country, blues, and folk in my music. Now the term Americana is often used for this style but back then it didn’t exist.
I was fortunate to hook up with the French indie label New Rose Records and starting with my Night Train album worked with them for a few years. New Rose was the European expatriate label for many of us American artists in the 1990s who couldn’t get a record deal in our own country at that time. Alex Chilton, Jeffrey Lee Pierce, Elliot Murphy, Tav Falco, Johnny Thunders, Calvin Russell, and so many more. The list is impressive and I’ll always champion the label and what they accomplished.
From Nowhere to Somewhere was the last album you recorded and in 2023 you’ve released the single The Woman in the Window. Tell me what other projects you have going and if there will be any upcoming Certain General activity.
Yes I’ve recorded a new album that will be released later this year. Woman in the Window is the first single off it and there will be others in the coming months. I’ve learned over time that what works best for me is to concentrate on just one music project at a time — and at present that would be performing and recording my original songs with some amazingly talented people.
I returned to play in Europe a few years ago; one tour with Certain General and some solo dates of my own in France and Great Britain a couple of years later. And last year I did something I’ve wanted to do for a while – I finally published some of my short fiction online, you can find them at medium.com. I’ve got plans to publish a full book of them.
What is the future for Certain General… that’s hard to answer. For many years, it was only Parker and myself left from the original lineup performing with different players who would come and go. The band has split up and reconvened a few times and for several years in the 1990s was shut down totally as all of us were pursuing other projects. It’s all good… everyone is making their art and working hard at it. There are no future plans for us but when were there ever?
philgammage.bandcamp.com/
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